Below a leerh of a conversation between myself and others...To me ay kainda hai, sanu aap nu puchnaa chaaheedaa, assi sach much sadi zuban nu pasand karde jaa nahi? :

ਕੀ ਖਿਆਲ ਓਏ?

(Based out of Pakistan) These fellows have developed a new script for Punjabi Language and dialects. And that too they aim to educate people for free. Now, I'm not sure how the script works or if it's even any good (Stephen can shed some light on that I hope?) But I got to thinking. What kind of a person does it take, to develop a brand new script for a language, and on top of that, campaign and gain support to see it stand on it's own two legs and gain use?




Someone much like ourselves, I'd reckon. If you read through the website a bit, you find some of his complaints, are very similar to our own. That we Punjabis have let our language to stagnate, that we are adverse to change and proegress. We're still stuck in victorian england so to speak and unless the west suggests a new idea, we're fine sitting by idly doing nothing but drinking and making fools of ourselves (let alone picking up a book and reading)




Another problem which we seem to run into, is we're divided in terms of religion. Half our literature is in Gurmukhi, half is in Shahmukhi. Because Bob wasn't raised a Muslim, let's say he only knows Gurmukhi. That's great. He can read Gurbani and Kavishri and all sorts of cool things. But when it comes to the other half of the Punjabi literary puzzle, he's clueless. Can't read a lick of Shahmukhi.




By helping this particular script (or any other script like this) gain acceptance, we have the opportunity to unite the community and put out material that anyone can understand. Not to mention the fact we can simply translate the old classics into the new script, as one of our (Rana Sahb's and myself's) main goals is preserving our old literature and vocabulary, and by an extent customs and traditions.




Another thing he briefly touches on (the creator of this script) is that he wishes to help punjabi through the 21st century. By doing things like creating new vocabulary for example, which Dhillon Sahb and I have discussed a few times.




Not proposing we all drop everything we're doing and learn a brand new script which none of us have heard of before, just tossing out some thoughts and ideas. If we hope to get anywhere with our projects, then we need to think big and openly discuss these little schemes (Which as Punjabis come as natural to us as breathing or eating or getting drunk and fighting haha).




I plan to write up a little pitch/proposal and send it to this fellow sometime soon, I'll run it by you all first and see what you think. Perhaps we can write up one standard pitch which can be posted on message boards and be sent to people via emails/comments/etc.




(Thanks for putting up with my giant ramblings)

Well I dont know if another script will work...its hard enough getting people to learn the ones that have been around for hundreds of years! (Gurmukhi/Shahmukhi) Punjabi people just cant be bothered to read full stop! Another script may just confuse the situation even more? It's possibly like adding a Gaza strip between Palestine and Israel? That's the problem...and it seems we are definitely on the same page Mr BS Rana...
 


"That we Punjabis have let our language to stagnate, that we are adverse to change and proegress. We're still stuck in victorian england so to speak and unless the west suggests a new idea, we're fine sitting by idly doing nothing but drinking and making fools of ourselves (let alone picking up a book and reading)"
 



I couldn't agree more, I've been trying to push this whole - LETS FORGET DRINKING AND DROOLING OVER GIRLS AND BECOME REAL MEN AND DEVELOP OUR CULTURE...scenario so long but no one is bothered, we look stupid in the media because our Punjabi lok maansikta via whatever means and brainwashing is inextricably....stupid.
 



This is where we can team up and push development of our language (it's a delight knowing there are more people like you feeling the pain of a language on it's last limb)
 



As for your "ramblings" I wouldn't call them ramblings rather "essays" and they are an enjoyable and educational read to say the least so keep up the good work...we will discuss where Pachmi Baghaavat/Batti or whatever other name we want to give the movement should go and how...


No one who does not buy and read Punjabi novels or poetry books has the right to call themselves punjabi... Another reason to be ashamed of calling yourself Punjabi
 



We have killed our own language... We Are having to write these emails in English because the people we want to send our message to can't read Punjabi!




If you don't read Punjabi or write it, you are NOT Punjabi

wrote a little something about this to Rana sahb earlier. Sure, our people grow up speaking punjabi. Great. But no emphasis is placed on reading or writing. That's what English is for, right? So with such a setup in place, we can see that our audience needs adjusting. We're singing the wrong tune to the wrong crowd. In this case, we're performing a skit about values and self sacrifice for love of our language, but they want to see a miss pooja song dvd about facebook and daru and tractors.
 
This is why I say, that our audience needs adjusting. See, I have a theory. By being born and raised in the west, by having English as our first language, we're technically BAD Punjabis. We're more like Englishman. We have this thirst for knowledge, these grand ambitions, as only Englishmen have. No Punjabi wrote a dictionary for malwai dialect. It took the western curiosity and thirst for knowledge to come in and say "We need to know more about this, commission a research team to find out everything they can and put together a product we can look at."
 


Because you approached Punjabi from the angle of a student, because Stephen went to Punjab and was looking INTO that world from a foreign perspective, because I grew up not knowing my own language, we really developed a passion for this. We looked through history books and dictionaries and really just fell in love. This is what Punjabis are missing out on. They already know the Language, they don't give a damn about Waris, Bullah, Nanak. They don't care about Sihari, Sassa, Kakka, etc. What's Shahmukhi? Ravi Satluj Chenab? The hell are those?
 



So, I don't think it's a case of THEM not being Punjabi. I think it's more like WE'RE not Punjabi. We don't drink and fight, we don't do drugs and carry around rifles. We don't fight over Jatt Chamaar not being allowed into Gurughar. We're busy reading and writing books, building contact networks, thinking about developing and aiding a language. There's something White people are famous for I'd reckon. They always look into windows from an outsiders perspective and think tot themselves, I'm going to do this, and do it better than the people who invented it. Then I'm going to show them the CORRECT way to do it. I'll write books and make libraries dedicated to this thing.
 



I'd say we're Englishmen through and through, eh

ਰੂਪ ਵੀਰੇ,

    ਇਹ ਗ਼ਲਤ ਧਾਰਨਾ ਹੈ ਤੁਹਾਡੀ ਤੇ ਹੋਰਾਂ ਦੀ। ਮੈਂ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਇੱਕ ਲੇਖ ਭੇਜਣਾ ਚਾਹੁੰਦਾ ਹਾਂ ਜੋ ਇਸੇ ਚੀਜ਼ ਨਾਲ਼ ਸਬੰਧਤ ਹੈ। ਉਸਦਾ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਹੈ, "ਪੰਜਾਬ 'ਚ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਲੋਕ ਹਿੰਦੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ?" ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕੁੱਝ ਸਮਾਂ ਦਿਓ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਉਹ ਆਪਣੀਆਂ ਪੁਰਾਣੀਆਂ ਕੰਪਿਊਟਰੀ ਫਾਇਲਾਂ 'ਚੋਂ ਲੱਭ ਕੇ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਭੇਜ ਸਕਾਂ। ਸ਼ੈਕਸ਼ਪੀਅਰ ਅੰਗਰੇਜ਼ਾਂ 'ਚ ਇੰਨਾ ਮਸ਼ਹੂਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਜਿੰਨਾ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ 'ਚ ਵਾਰਿਸ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ "ਹੀਰ" ਦਾ ਕਿੱਸਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਸੀ। ਅਨਪੜ੍ਹ ਲੋਕੀਂ ਵੀ ਵਾਰਿਸ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਦੀਆਂ ਤੁਕਾਂ ਯਾਦ ਕਰੀ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਆਮ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਗੀ 'ਚ ਉਸਦੀਆਂ ਉਦਾਹਰਣਾਂ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ। ਮੇਰੇ ਖਿਆਲ 'ਚ ਧਰਮ ਤੋਂ ਪਿੱਛੋਂ ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਇਉਂ ਮਸ਼ਹੂਰ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ 'ਚ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਵਾਰਿਸ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਹੀ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ਬਾਕੀ ਫੇਰ ਸਹੀ। ਮੈਂ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਆਪਣੀ ਮਾਂ-ਬੋਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਨਾ ਹੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹਾਂ।

Don't worry about that, Dhillon sahb. You've tasted a bit of the reality courtesy of our community. Naturally after spending so much of your own time, and money, you're going to lose it. Should you instead be happy?
 


After reading that email, I'm going to have to disagree. Shakespeare is taught to almost all English speaking kids in school in some form or another. One of the main reasons people in our community knew so much about Waris, Bullah, Nanak, is because we had such a strong folk music tradition. Now that the great folk singers and qawwals have been replaced by the Honey Singh's and the Miss Poojas, who's going to even know about Heer Ranjha, Sassi Punnun, Mirza Sahiba, Sohni Mahiwal?
 



Who's reading about Dullah Bhatti in school? Are the children being taught about these things? Do they read Shiv Kumar Batalvi, Surjit Patar, Babu Rajab Ali Khan? Let alone read any of that stuff, do they even know HOW to read? Is Punjabi language even taught in Punjabi schools? Is it MANDATORY to educate children in their mother tongue?
 

SO WHAT'S YOUR VIEW? ਕੀ ਖਿਆਲ ਓਏ?

Officer Ji, mai taan english vich taa chaapay han, kiokay mostly ay e-mail Angrezi'ch nay...ay keval extracts ne e-mailaa dee larhi to, jay lok aaps vich angrezi'ch Punjabi bare discuss kar rahe ho, is da mai kujh nahi karsakdaa!! Naalay aaj kalh taa sade lok Punjabi to vadh angrezi atay hindi nu maan day rahe ho!!

...
ਵੀਰੇ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਦ ਮੈਂ ਕੰਮ ਤੋਂ ਈ ਮੇਲ ਘਲਦਾ, ਕੇਵਲ ਅੰਗ੍ਰੇਜ਼ੀ ਅਖਰ ਹਨ, ਉਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਗਲਿਸ਼ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖਣਾ ਸੌਖਾ ਏ
ਸਮਝਲਾ lazinessਹੈ!! :sad:

mainu aa ik gora jehra youtube tay punjabi'ch bolda nai ghaliaa

Hello all,

I've spent the last 10 days reflecting on some of the issues brought up in recent e-mails, both regarding the state of Punjabi today and the different directions in which we can take our little troupe of Punjabi supporters. Allow me to say (write!) a few words.

Widespread literacy in South Asia is a recent phenomenon. Never in the region's history have so many people been able to engage with the written word. Naturally, then, we cannot expect the average Punjabi to be well immersed in literature. Even Bengal, with its rich modern literary scene borne out of interaction with the British, cannot boast literacy rates matching those in any Western nation. We therefore have to be a bit measured and realistic in our expectations.

Complicating the matter further for Punjabi is its young history as a literary language. Yes, we have poetry dating back hundreds of years, but only in the decades following partition did Punjabi come to be used as a modern language of administration. Remember that even Ranjit Singh continued the administrative use of Persian. The Sikh community can be thanked for its untiring support of Punjabi, but there remains a lot of work to be done if it is truly to be used in every facet of modern life. Punjabi's relative youth is one source of the bias which currently exists against its use in certain circles of society.

Can a Punjabi literary scene thrive when it is so young, its people new to literary culture, and its value constantly denegrated by many of societies' more powerful classes? Well, Italian, which itself only spread across Italy with the rising popularity of television and radio, boasts many nobel laureates and a thriving literature, despite Italy having the lowest rates of functional literacy in Western Europe! Admittedly, Italy has supported universities for nearly a thousand years, and the language itself has long had support of the middle and upper classes, but my point is to show how you don't need every member of society to be a literature buff in order for that scene to develop and prosper. There are many, many factors at play.

The Punjabi literary scene is not dead. I know it may seem so when you compare its position with those of European languages, but trust me; it's doing a lot better than many other South Asian languages. I challenge each of you to visit Punjabi University in Patiala and to chat with students in the Punjabi department. It's a skewed sample, but the proof is clear that the scene is doing quite well for itself. Yes, there are problems... The scene can be cliqueish, and one constantly encounters the road block of a scholar's personal ego, or some other issue. Despite all that, there's a market for quality material, and that market is huge.

Roop, you face a few distinct challenges. The first is that the genres you're promoting are new to the scene. The second is that the primary consumers of Punjabi literature are not going to immediately be receptive to said genres. The third is language, which I'll now elaborate upon.

The comparison between Punjabi as it is spoken by second and third generation members of the diaspora and transformed Quebecois French or Latin American Spanish is, unfortunately, inaccurate. Those languages were transplanted without the following generations losing them as their mother tongue. They were influenced by new linguistic factors particular to their new geography, but they were the primary languages used by their speakers. Diasporic Punjabi is much different, as the speakers themselves are deeply influenced by English (or Italian, French, etc.) A Punjabi like yourself who learns Punjabi later in life, entirely from scratch, is not speaking a Punjabi dialect akin to Brazilian Portuguese, for example. He is speaking a second language marked deeply by the influence of his first language. Unfortunately, the spelling and grammatical errors which will appear (unless corrected through study and hard work, of course) are unlikely to be accepted as legitimate forms of language by those with Punjabi as a mother tongue.

The real 'dialect' of the diaspora is not one dialect, but many. It changes based on the local source of influence, as I mentioned above. Punjabis living in Italy will have their own unique form based on some admixture with either Italian or the local language (Venetian, for example, as many Punjabis are in Veneto). The Punjabi used by a young person in BC is different than that used by a young person in London. Also important is the variety of dialectical forms they are surrounded with, such as the specific dialect of friends or family.

Now, I think there's a market for this kind of literature. It already exists, actually. The Anglicised Punjabi of London is displayed wonderfully in Harman Atwal's "Southall", and the Punjabified English of London is shown in Gautam Multani's "Londonstani". There won't be a market for books with the obvious spelling and grammatical errors of a second language learner. I wish to stress that I am NOT directing that at your writing, Roop; I'm simply trying to shine some light on language and the forms which are likely to be accepted by the public.

Ok, next topic: as an organized group, what can we achieve? Starting a new literary front is indeed quite an achievement for which Roop should be commended! That's something we should continue to nurture and develop, also seeking out like-minded members of the diaspora interested in similar genres. I personally can't contribute much of anything to the literary side, as I don't even read much fiction in English! My own strengths are clearly more on the pedagogical and linguistic fronts, both of which I'm trying to develop further during my time here in grad school. Brendan and I have many, many ideas about possible tools to produce, but I must admit that I don't have too much time right now to work on such projects, and probably won't for the next year-and-a-half. What I think I do have time for is creating new Youtube videos about Punjabi, including some more instructional videos, for which there definitely is quite a lot of demand.

I should also mention that my thesis supervisor here at Oxford is interested in developing a Mirpuri course. I have expressed my interest in assisting with this project, as I have a strong interest in Punjabi dialectology. I'm considering some diasporic Punjabi work for a PhD in Toronto once I'm done in the UK, so I'll definitely be able to contribute further to this side of the movement a few years down the road.

If there's anything we need in the short term, it's more organisation and direction. I honestly think we need to get some sort of website up in running. It should be clear, crisp and professional. It would delineate our goals as a movement, and could host all kinds of literary & language-learning materials.

Anyway, this e-mail has gotten WAY too long, so I'll cut it short here. I hope you've all found some of the material above to be interesting!

Stephen