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Discussions / Kerfufle & Ryder | Atheism VS Theism talk
« on: September 20, 2017, 02:46:27 AM »
Well hello again!
Ok so as discussed, here I am making us a topic as a single point of discussion for convenience.
Sorry it took me a little while to do so because I was away travelling. And driving on those long highway journeys did put me into an introspection and deep thinking mode on the subject in hand.
I'll copy paste and dump all the related posts in their natural sequence and I'll individually put forth my views to the ones I haven't replied.
Note: Since the discussion was just between the two of us, to maintain quality of the discussion I'd request anybody reading the topic to not include their opinions or views to the discussion. If at all you're interested to discuss you can always let me know in PM and I can integrate a new participant to the topic.
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Arctic Patroller “Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...”
― C.S. Lewis
kerfufle: Atheists are manufactured. To divide - me
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Arctic Patroller “Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man?”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
kerfufle: We are not God's mistake... God just made a mistake creating man in his image.
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Arctic Patroller > kerfufle kerfufle: We are not God's mistake... God just made a mistake creating man in his image.
Arctic Patroller: Lol, if we were created by god in his own image then why would he want us to praise him and prove our worth to him? Why would he then even put us to test if we were created in his image?
Man created god out of his own fears, insecurities and imagination.
kerfufle: perspective is always fun :)
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Arctic Patroller > kerfufle kerfufle: Atheists are manufactured. To divide - me
Arctic Patroller: Lol, please tell me that you were being sarcastic here, because what you said above reflects religion not atheism. Divides are created by religion and its followers. All the bloodiest battles fought and sickest crimes committed joyfully against other human beings were in the name of religion. An atheist wants to see poverty and war eliminated, involvement in life and individual growth. Atheists are by far more humble than the self righteous and arrogant religious believers.
kerfufle: Atheism is a religion and they will fight you, physically, to tell you about it. Do you see these black wearing, nazi armies popping up all over the world? They stand up all over the world to tell us that we have this condition called, 'Wrong Think". And they are all to willing to smack you over the head with a Bike Lock to knock some sense into you.
Atheists' were created to split Christianity apart. To kill the church. Now there is nothing standing up for us "Wrong Thinkers' and the "Peaceful" Atheist Ideologies.
There is nothing stopping this religion called... ehem... Liberalism and Allies. We're all fucked. Because of the "Righteous and Humble" and Peaceful Beliefs of Atheism.
But alas, I have come to the realization that I usually have things backwards and am always wrong. I have grades giving to me by Liberal, "one think" professors to prove it. Step in line young minion and fix your "Wrong think"
Unity and Slavery for all. :)
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__[Post# 5]_________________________________________________ |The debate kicks off from here|
Arctic Patroller > kerfufle Well thanks for writing. Read it all, but I didn't find you exhibiting a very thoughtful view on the subject, but rather repelling from logic and facts.
Let me go a little further to explain it better and tell you where you've been wrong.
After having studied atheism for a fairly good amount of time, I've come to a personal conclusion about the subject. Firstly atheism is neither a religion, nor was it devised to divide or split Christianity. Those who are against Christianity or want to bring an end to it are the Antichrists and Satanists/Luciferians. The common thing with these cults is that they believe in the existence of a different supernatural power as their father/deity and submit to him or worship him and oppose Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity with an approach which is viewed to be purely blasphemous by Christians.
Whereas an atheist is a person who rejects the idea of god and anything or everything to do with him. An atheist can formerly come from any religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc), therefore this proves that it was not created with the agenda to split Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Basically an atheist rises above the debate whether god exists or not, if he does exist then which god from which religion is true etc. So when an atheist floats above this, he is detached to the previous religious emotions and unlearns the religious teachings imparted into his brain before. When this happens, he starts to view death very differently which eventually changes his attitude towards life. He gets in touch with his natural instincts, personal intelligence, becomes a better observer, understands the world better and discerns the human needs better, finds practical ways to overcome personal guilt & shame because he is no more busy with what religion has to brainwash him with. He's least bothered about who is against or for his former religion, he's rather out there involved in life more intensely and evolving faster because he values his human life much more than a religiously driven person because he sees life to be a one time affair and therefore aspires to be the best he can be before he dies, and has little time to hold grudges and hatred for other people/religions/religious believes etc. An atheist will never claim to be a "know it all" guy when it comes to topics like life after death, reincarnation, judgement day, apocalypse etc because he admits that he may not have all the answers and does not unnecessarily try to come up with an answer out of fantasy but rather faces and feels the fears as they come and this is why I see them as humble and honest people.
The Nazis you mentioned popping up these days, I have heard and read about them as well. Basically it's just a tiny fraction of people (next to nothing) who support the German Nazi agenda. These people have secretly popped up in remote areas of Germany and even in Sweden. Btw, Hitler's Nazism was pro Christianity and was never against it. Atheism has nothing to do with Nazism at all in any sense.
So the above written text is just a little snapshot of Atheism. In a nutshell, atheism is just a mindset with no political or religious inclination. I hope this helped you understand the subject better now. I'd like to hear you out as well.
Cheerio!
kerfufle: Good Response. I will respond to it with a little more consideration. I was just matching my perceived tone of your response.
Just give me a couple days, just a little busy this weekend. This might not actually be the right forum for a discussion of such abstract idea's such as religion. I think we need to set some ground rules and define what we are talking about first though, or we're a couple bitches complaining about completely different things.
But lets give it a go anyways. I'll respond more thoughtfully in a couple days. But here is my high level view.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and phlisophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose anything restriction on doing whatever I want.
Morality the concept, is vast, and means a lot of different things to different people. Which might be the topic of another day. But again, its a starting point for discussion that doesn't end in a couple lines, written on a message board, in an obscure part of the internet world.
Voltaire: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
And I believe this applies to both religion and political views, so take your stance, is atheism a political view point or a religions one? In today's world I believe politics is a rogue religion with many factions. Religion is a belief system that requires an initiation and requires you to follow rules.
On a side note, do you think Scientology is a religion?
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller
I'm going to say that you agree with everything this guy says. I agree with him. Once I understand where you stand on this.. We can have a real discussion, because I think I will know how far apart we are, on how how society is equal vs how unequal it is.
Its 1hour long. You can speed up the video by clicking on the "Gear" and change the "Speed".
Anyhow, I'd love to see your thoughts on Stephan's video.
kerfufle: Here's another one, let me know what you think. These are new video's... not ancient history.
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller I haven’t actually thought about religion in particular, I study the significance of world events and history from a general stand point. There was a certain point in my life where I realized that what I was being told didn’t reconcile with what I was seeing. I started studying finance which lead to Politics/Religion. And by studying politicians and famous people you find out, some of the twisted shit that they are into.
In my current mind, Religion and Politics is one and the same. We are naturally Political/Religious creatures, and saying that you are above it, is a very grand statement. And I would need to get to know you a little better for me to believe you.
I don’t want to admit it, but I have read a lot of material, compared to other people, about Lucifer and Satan... because of the book called “rules for radicals’ and its implications on modern politics. Its some hard stuff to get through... but there are gigabytes of it. And a lot of the Satanist methodology is very prevalent in the Atheistic world view. Just saying, maybe unknowingly, maybe conjured that way.
And to the point of a Religion requiring a deity or a central figure, I think we both agree that Buddhism and Scientology are considered Religions. To my knowledge, neither has a deity.
Getting into the discussion about which god and from which religion is true is a very basic argument. I think we both know that God, the concept, was created once, and every religion is talking about the same one. They name might change as its translated into a new language, but the idea is the same. Getting into the semantics of it, devalues the whole discussion. People that generally believe in God, generally have a higher standard for Morals, they follow rules that promote family and good values. Atheist try to re-invent the wheel thinking they know better.
Do you know of an Atheist that doesn’t hope that there is a God in their final moments before dieing (natural causes or an emergency room)? It might be a childish concept to an Atheist, but it is very endearing and comforting one for everyone else. I know Atheists strive to be like Vulcan's from Star Trek, but even they have temples and priests which suggests that they believe in at least one God. Even though it might seem illogical.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and philosophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose any restrictions on doing whatever I want. And your claim that an Atheist, wont claim to be a “know it all”, I think might be a false premise. I’m assuming that you identify as an Atheist, and if I go by what you are saying, you would have never tried to correct me about my thoughts on Atheism you wouldn’t have put the effort into correcting me. In my mind you might pick up arms one day to tell me how it is.
As for the Nazi’s I mentioned. They go by the name of Antifa, or Anti-Fascists. These people use Fascists tactics to silence people with the “wrong think” condition that I mentioned. They use sticks, and bottles filled with their own urine and toss them at innocent bystanders and police. These people are not restricted to just Europe, Canada and the USA have been experiencing these degenerates too. These people model themselves after Mussolini's Blackshirts or Hitlers Brownshirt's (storm troopers). They might be small, but they are international. The thing is, nobody asks any questions about these guys... they currently have a free pass to inflict destruction. And all of these people seem to be atheists... mostly white... and probably formerly Christian. Again, I wont assume, anything because nothing surprises me anymore.
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Well I'm clear in my mind that I was talking about RELIGION Vs NO RELIGION. This further breaks into GOD Vs NO GOD. In the midst of it all I observed that you mixed up numerous subjects which diluted the original one and I think this is the reason why you've gotten confused. Nevertheless, I'll try to explain my version and understanding of religion and politics before we go any further.
First of all, religion and politics are two different things. I do not see them as one and the same.
Religion in my opinion is a practice of certain rules (conduct) and lifestyle to satisfy god, be holy, attain salvation and finally have a happy "afterlife". Whereas politics in a broad sense is about governance, power and control to run the show in an economy. This understanding of religion and politics is accepted pretty much by a majority of people everywhere and should not be perceived as the same thing because that's just how it is. Yes, later as time went by, politics and religion did get closely knit together and may give an appearance of being one mesh but they're not. Now that I have distinguished them both, I'll stop here and will try to elaborate further on this later down in the topic.
Going further, I agree with you that education in today's time is impartial and information distributed is mostly biased for self interest. But I do not agree with you stating that one cannot reach a higher conscience. Knowing the current environment where information and data is manipulated one has to pursue a personal research, study, observation and possess a personal understanding of things. All of this requires effort, hard work, time and most importantly the will. How many people do you think are willing to come out of their comfort zones for this? How many do you think would have the mental strength to face the ugly truths? Not many! So it's better to let those people be happy in their own comfort zones and be sufficiently satisfied with the lies they've been living with, in a way it's good for their own selves. After knowing that they were much better off not knowing it all and happier running the rat mill, why should they screw their peace of mind anyway?
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I basically hate all the "isms" that get put after a mindset because later it is more likely to get perceived as a religion. Can you tell me how atheism is a religion? According to you religion has a set of rules to follow and as you say that atheism has none, so how does it even qualify as a religious practice? It is a mindset, not a religion. And who says atheist don't believe in "anything"? Just because they do not believe in a god that religion and society has tried to teach them as, does not mean they're an empty vessel that could be taken over by anyone or anything. On the contrary to your statement, atheist are less likely to get manipulated because they're skeptic, they question, they analyse and understand situations logically and they're less likely to believe anything that gets thrown at them without a proof. On the other hand religious people are more vulnerable to manipulation because if they can believe in an unseen and an unknown entity (god) with no logical or a solid proof, then they could possibly believe other things as well without a proof..And if something goes wrong, they'll just call it as an act of god's will without accepting the fact that it may have happened from their own negligence and foolish blind trust..They just can't handle responsibility and find it much easier to put it on god or just confess to him at the most. Atheist too believe in doing good, honesty, compassion, social responsibility and for all of this why would a human being need a religion in the first place? These human attributes should come naturally to people. And these are basic morals, I don't they think they should fall in conflict with a number of atheists in a group. Smart atheists think alike and won't fight eachother on basic moralities.
I think morals aren't really too differently defined, people just complicate "moralities" to suit their own interest or may be they just don't know what they're talking about and have some problem with their mental condition. Can you quote an example of difference in morals for different people?
Voltaire: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
And I believe this applies to both religion and political views, so take your stance, is atheism a political view point or a religions one? In today's world I believe politics is a rogue religion with many factions. Religion is a belief system that requires an initiation and requires you to follow rules.
On a side note, do you think Scientology is a religion?
Voltaire is one of my favorite philosophers/writers and have always liked the quote.
My stance is that atheism is neither of the two. It is a personal mindset that one decides to adopt. I would mix it neither with religion nor politics, it is to be left as what it is.
Scientology is a self proclaimed organized religious cult..So yes, it is a religion..It even involves an initiation into the cult..This cult came to my awareness a few years ago, and didn't really catch my interest to know more about it.
I watched both of them, fast forwarded them to some stretches. Honestly I couldn't relate the content of the videos with the subject at all. May be you could try explaining me the reason why you shared it.
In my current mind, Religion and Politics is one and the same. We are naturally Political/Religious creatures, and saying that you are above it, is a very grand statement. And I would need to get to know you a little better for me to believe you.
Speaking of my opinion, I've already distinguished religion from politics. I'll go further than that now. And will only talk about the atheistic mindset.
We, or should I say most humans are fearful of death and are insecure of themselves. The fact that they do not know about what will happen after they die, it scares them. They probably want to live forever - they're lustful, ambitious, materialistic, believe in possessions and so on. They're so scared of the unknown that out of self preservation and self centeredness they imagine a life after death. A life span of 75-80 years just isn't enough, for them, life has to go on and get carried forward to a celestial or an astral plane and so on..All of this simply because they want their existence to mean something..These meanings that they derive in their own imagination just simply comforts them from the fear of the unknown (death and future events). This is where the quote "god didn't make man, man made god" comes into picture. An atheist just simply says there's no "meaning" to life and to a certain degree it also makes sense to me. Like, think about it - what possible meaning can life have? Did god create you? If your answer is yes, then why did he? Some may argue that god created men to let them be like him after praying to him, praising him, following certain rules/commandments etc. If this is the case, then isn't god a mischief maker for creating imperfect men and expecting them to be like him upon overcoming their so called "imperfections", which according to me is not possible because what would be termed as an imperfection is something that would come naturally to a normal human being and expecting them to overcome all of those is like asking them to deceive their own senses and natural instincts. Nothing to an enlightened man is imperfect or perfect, to him things are just how they are and does not waste too much time and energy judging them. This chain of thoughts is what gives rise to religion because it is linked to a god that man created to soothe his fears and feel secure in god's cocoon who will protect him from any mishaps because he prays to him, does what the religious rules tell him to do and will take his hand during the time of death to carry him to the next "better" place. This even reminds of the quote "I'm not scared of dying, because I'm an atheist. I won't even know I'm dead. You know why? Because I'll be fuckin' dead" by Jim Jefferies. So when you say that man is religious, he's not! He's basically fearful. Religion is just an anesthesia to him.
With the above being said, man is not political but rather greedy, power hungry, selfish, jealous, insecure, control crazy, manipulative, survivor, fighter, competitive and so on. Politics is everywhere and at every level - organizational, corporate, government, bureaucracy, families, friend circles etc...And all of this just for survival and control in an area where people gather in organized groups...Politics is just the tool and it could be used by both a religious person and an atheist. Point to note here that a religious person chooses to give away the "religious moral conduct" over politics just to survive or to even climb up the ladder - quite a hypocrisy eh.
An atheist knows the difference in religion and politics.
I don’t want to admit it, but I have read a lot of material, compared to other people, about Lucifer and Satan... because of the book called “rules for radicals’ and its implications on modern politics. Its some hard stuff to get through... but there are gigabytes of it. And a lot of the Satanist methodology is very prevalent in the Atheistic world view. Just saying, maybe unknowingly, maybe conjured that way.
Ok, I'll take the liberty to try adding a little more to your already existing knowledge on Satanism. There are two kinds of it - one that accepts Satan/Lucifer as the true father and creator and oppose Jesus Christ. They have a believe in an entity as their god who they call Satan. The second type is Laveyan Satanism. This sect of Satanism was started by Anton Lavey, the founder of Church of Satan. Laveyan Satanism actually believes in man being just flesh and bones and nothing more than that, they reject the idea of existence of any kind of a super natural power whether god or the devil, nor do they believe in a spirit existence. They think of man as just another animal with his natural animal like instincts of which he should not feel guilty of. Now, the irony is that whatever is written in the Satanic Bible Anton Lavey, is nothing more than a pure copy paste of content from the book "Might is Right" by Ragnar Redbeard. I was myself shocked when I read this book and learnt that almost everything was lifted from this book by Anton Lavey for the so called Satanic Bible. You may ask that if the Satanic Bible talks of non belief in both god and devil then why would he even name the cult after a devil figure? Well he simply did that to mock the Christian Church! It's stupid, I know. You may even argue that atheists and Laveyan Satanists are the same then. I would say, no they're not..There are vast differences in both even if they have just one point of parity which is that they both reject the idea of god. Other than this there are many points of difference between the two.
And to the point of a Religion requiring a deity or a central figure, I think we both agree that Buddhism and Scientology are considered Religions. To my knowledge, neither has a deity.
Well they're both religions. Religions that have one or more deities are polytheistic and the ones that don't have are monotheistic. So having a deity or not having one is not the question at all, they're religions!
Getting into the discussion about which god and from which religion is true is a very basic argument. I think we both know that God, the concept, was created once, and every religion is talking about the same one. They name might change as its translated into a new language, but the idea is the same. Getting into the semantics of it, devalues the whole discussion. People that generally believe in God, generally have a higher standard for Morals, they follow rules that promote family and good values. Atheist try to re-invent the wheel thinking they know better.
I would differ on your statement that every religion talks on the same idea but in different languages. Religion has been around for ages, they all were founded on certain belief systems that were conditioned and shaped by the circumstances and cultures of the land that were founded on. They just might have only one thing in common that they refer to something called as a "god" but the way they have defined god is different from eachother. Just the difference in definition of god may be enough to cause conflicts amongst eachother, let alone the list of other differences. I don't need to mentioned the slaughters done and bloody battles fought in the name of religion..Those who fighting also said during the wars and battles that god was on their side, but whose side was god really on? I also disagree with you saying that belief in god or religion instills higher moral values in social and personal conduct and teach good family values. Going by your stated standard, if a married couple isn't happy with eachother and can't find solutions to their problems then they shouldn't go for a divorce, right? Because religion tells them to stay married with just one partner forever even if that means tolerating each other with dislike and bitterness. Good standard of morals and values in social and family life comes from an individual's empathy, sound emotional balance and personal intellect and not religion. Religion can enforce these value by instilling fear in people who naturally lack these attributes. This reminds me of the quote "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" by Napolean. Atheists don't try to re-invent anything, they just try to be rational and realistic.
Do you know of an Atheist that doesn’t hope that there is a God in their final moments before dieing (natural causes or an emergency room)? It might be a childish concept to an Atheist, but it is very endearing and comforting one for everyone else. I know Atheists strive to be like Vulcan's from Star Trek, but even they have temples and priests which suggests that they believe in at least one God. Even though it might seem illogical.
No I personally do not know any such people. But there are some atheist figures who Christians claim to have converted back to their religion and accepted god whilst on their death beds but no such reliable records have been found that prove those claims to be right. No such records are found for Christopher Hitchens...Christians have even staged a propaganda that Anton Lavey regretted being an atheist and accepted Christanity during his last hours and repented till his last breath..I can't believe this to be true either because it is obvious for religiously driven people to say all of that but then a question to think about is that what would a "righteous" Christian be doing around Anton's death bed? Is it not going to be a sin for such a Christian to be even around such a person? I know that Lemmy Kilmister, the front man of the band Motorhead didn't believe in god or the devil till his death..He always rejected the idea..He passed away about 2 years ago, there has been no discussion found of him wanting to believe in a god in his final hours. He died just two days after he was diagnosed with last stage cancer. He rather welcomed death with a smile, that's what has been said about him. However, the man was spiritual but didn't believe in the type of god that the world tells us. Now I have a question for you - Why did you have to come with quoting just death to test a person's belief in god? Why just death? I always wonder why people always talk about god so seriously when they think of death? Why do I not come across people who think of god in their living life, happy moments and are grateful..People who would see a great beautiful mountain or the coral reefs beneath the sea and say "hey look, that's such a unique and a beautiful creation of god and I thank him for letting me witness it, or like "god you're awesome and I love you!" For such people to remember god on their death beds is justifiable! Because they made god a part of their happy moments in life, didn't complain to him for the hard times and had been grateful for all the good and bad things that happened because they did learn from it. Think about it!
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose any restrictions on doing whatever I want. And your claim that an Atheist, wont claim to be a “know it all”, I think might be a false premise. I’m assuming that you identify as an Atheist, and if I go by what you are saying, you would have never tried to correct me about my thoughts on Atheism you wouldn’t have put the effort into correcting me. In my mind you might pick up arms one day to tell me how it is.
Well I too agree with being ok with anyone doing anything as long as it does not pose restrictions or threats to somebody else.
And I think you didn't read the text correctly - I never said that atheists don't claim to be a "know it all", I just said they don't pretend to be knowing everything about the after life and other mysteries of the world. I'll paste the comment here for you to read it again from Post# 5: An atheist will never claim to be a "know it all" guy when it comes to topics like life after death, reincarnation, judgement day, apocalypse etc because he admits that he may not have all the answers and does not unnecessarily try to come up with an answer out of fantasy but rather faces and feels the fears as they come and this is why I see them as humble and honest people. Moreover, I never said that I'm an hardcore atheist. I do have respect for those atheists who are genuine and reasonable, and I also have respect for what they believe in because most of it makes a lot of sense to me. But I do have some traits of an agnostic. More than all of this, I'm spiritual. I don't want to confuse you so I'd just say that my definition of god is different from what people try to tell me. And you are entitled to your own opinion but I won't refrain from saying that a correction was indeed required because as I said earlier that you mixed up a few things and I just made a small effort to segregate atheism, religion and politics from each other to let you have a little more clear picture. What you've told me about religion so far are the things that I already know and so do the masses, because it's a common knowledge to everyone..But what I've told you about atheism may have some new stuff for you to know about. Despite all of this, if you still maintain the same opinions as before then fine, I don't have a problem with that at all because they won't change my opinions as well and you have right to your opinions and their expression. And don't you think you should try knowing me better before just assuming that I'm somebody who's going to pick up arms to prove my point? Because earlier you said the same before you could actually believe that I'm above religion and politics then why not apply the same to the former comment as well, Lolll...Anyway, that was just a joke :)
As for the Nazi’s I mentioned. They go by the name of Antifa, or Anti-Fascists. These people use Fascists tactics to silence people with the “wrong think” condition that I mentioned. They use sticks, and bottles filled with their own urine and toss them at innocent bystanders and police. These people are not restricted to just Europe, Canada and the USA have been experiencing these degenerates too. These people model themselves after Mussolini's Blackshirts or Hitlers Brownshirt's (storm troopers). They might be small, but they are international. The thing is, nobody asks any questions about these guys... they currently have a free pass to inflict destruction. And all of these people seem to be atheists... mostly white... and probably formerly Christian. Again, I wont assume, anything because nothing surprises me anymore.
Ok, I checked up on the Nazi groups you mentioned.
Well they could be atheist but they're also extremist, just like you have religious extremists. They call themselves anti fascists which is ok, but looking at their actions they seem to misrepresent their own agenda and what further makes their deviation from their so called agenda even more obvious is the way they're putting across their message. I couldn't get to know much about them, whose sponsoring them, their real purpose of existence etc..All I could understand about them is that they're of an extremist mindset who are trying to impose their ideology forcefully and destructively on others which makes them law offenders and peace breakers..They're rather an anti social element and pose a serious threat to the society. They're in no way enlightened or intellectual.
Look, good people will do good and bad people will do bad whether they're religious or not. The bottom line is that religion or atheism is not about making somebody good because being good or bad is in the individual's nature regardless of what belief system he/she has. It's more about how can it enhance or improve your personal experience of life as an individual on earth..People who have a rich inner life, who have empathy for others, who have patience and are emotionally balanced do not need religion. Well they could be spiritual by choice, but they certainly do not feel the need to be religiously driven.
Well the discussion isn't yet over I know that. There's more to come, and I look forward to this taking an intelligent turn.
See ya!
Ok so as discussed, here I am making us a topic as a single point of discussion for convenience.
Sorry it took me a little while to do so because I was away travelling. And driving on those long highway journeys did put me into an introspection and deep thinking mode on the subject in hand.
I'll copy paste and dump all the related posts in their natural sequence and I'll individually put forth my views to the ones I haven't replied.
Note: Since the discussion was just between the two of us, to maintain quality of the discussion I'd request anybody reading the topic to not include their opinions or views to the discussion. If at all you're interested to discuss you can always let me know in PM and I can integrate a new participant to the topic.
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Arctic Patroller “Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...”
― C.S. Lewis
kerfufle: Atheists are manufactured. To divide - me
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Arctic Patroller “Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man?”
― Friedrich Nietzsche
kerfufle: We are not God's mistake... God just made a mistake creating man in his image.
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Arctic Patroller > kerfufle kerfufle: We are not God's mistake... God just made a mistake creating man in his image.
Arctic Patroller: Lol, if we were created by god in his own image then why would he want us to praise him and prove our worth to him? Why would he then even put us to test if we were created in his image?
Man created god out of his own fears, insecurities and imagination.
kerfufle: perspective is always fun :)
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Arctic Patroller > kerfufle kerfufle: Atheists are manufactured. To divide - me
Arctic Patroller: Lol, please tell me that you were being sarcastic here, because what you said above reflects religion not atheism. Divides are created by religion and its followers. All the bloodiest battles fought and sickest crimes committed joyfully against other human beings were in the name of religion. An atheist wants to see poverty and war eliminated, involvement in life and individual growth. Atheists are by far more humble than the self righteous and arrogant religious believers.
kerfufle: Atheism is a religion and they will fight you, physically, to tell you about it. Do you see these black wearing, nazi armies popping up all over the world? They stand up all over the world to tell us that we have this condition called, 'Wrong Think". And they are all to willing to smack you over the head with a Bike Lock to knock some sense into you.
Atheists' were created to split Christianity apart. To kill the church. Now there is nothing standing up for us "Wrong Thinkers' and the "Peaceful" Atheist Ideologies.
There is nothing stopping this religion called... ehem... Liberalism and Allies. We're all fucked. Because of the "Righteous and Humble" and Peaceful Beliefs of Atheism.
But alas, I have come to the realization that I usually have things backwards and am always wrong. I have grades giving to me by Liberal, "one think" professors to prove it. Step in line young minion and fix your "Wrong think"
Unity and Slavery for all. :)
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__[Post# 5]_________________________________________________ |The debate kicks off from here|
Arctic Patroller > kerfufle Well thanks for writing. Read it all, but I didn't find you exhibiting a very thoughtful view on the subject, but rather repelling from logic and facts.
Let me go a little further to explain it better and tell you where you've been wrong.
After having studied atheism for a fairly good amount of time, I've come to a personal conclusion about the subject. Firstly atheism is neither a religion, nor was it devised to divide or split Christianity. Those who are against Christianity or want to bring an end to it are the Antichrists and Satanists/Luciferians. The common thing with these cults is that they believe in the existence of a different supernatural power as their father/deity and submit to him or worship him and oppose Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity with an approach which is viewed to be purely blasphemous by Christians.
Whereas an atheist is a person who rejects the idea of god and anything or everything to do with him. An atheist can formerly come from any religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism etc), therefore this proves that it was not created with the agenda to split Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Basically an atheist rises above the debate whether god exists or not, if he does exist then which god from which religion is true etc. So when an atheist floats above this, he is detached to the previous religious emotions and unlearns the religious teachings imparted into his brain before. When this happens, he starts to view death very differently which eventually changes his attitude towards life. He gets in touch with his natural instincts, personal intelligence, becomes a better observer, understands the world better and discerns the human needs better, finds practical ways to overcome personal guilt & shame because he is no more busy with what religion has to brainwash him with. He's least bothered about who is against or for his former religion, he's rather out there involved in life more intensely and evolving faster because he values his human life much more than a religiously driven person because he sees life to be a one time affair and therefore aspires to be the best he can be before he dies, and has little time to hold grudges and hatred for other people/religions/religious believes etc. An atheist will never claim to be a "know it all" guy when it comes to topics like life after death, reincarnation, judgement day, apocalypse etc because he admits that he may not have all the answers and does not unnecessarily try to come up with an answer out of fantasy but rather faces and feels the fears as they come and this is why I see them as humble and honest people.
The Nazis you mentioned popping up these days, I have heard and read about them as well. Basically it's just a tiny fraction of people (next to nothing) who support the German Nazi agenda. These people have secretly popped up in remote areas of Germany and even in Sweden. Btw, Hitler's Nazism was pro Christianity and was never against it. Atheism has nothing to do with Nazism at all in any sense.
So the above written text is just a little snapshot of Atheism. In a nutshell, atheism is just a mindset with no political or religious inclination. I hope this helped you understand the subject better now. I'd like to hear you out as well.
Cheerio!
kerfufle: Good Response. I will respond to it with a little more consideration. I was just matching my perceived tone of your response.
Just give me a couple days, just a little busy this weekend. This might not actually be the right forum for a discussion of such abstract idea's such as religion. I think we need to set some ground rules and define what we are talking about first though, or we're a couple bitches complaining about completely different things.
But lets give it a go anyways. I'll respond more thoughtfully in a couple days. But here is my high level view.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and phlisophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose anything restriction on doing whatever I want.
Morality the concept, is vast, and means a lot of different things to different people. Which might be the topic of another day. But again, its a starting point for discussion that doesn't end in a couple lines, written on a message board, in an obscure part of the internet world.
Voltaire: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
And I believe this applies to both religion and political views, so take your stance, is atheism a political view point or a religions one? In today's world I believe politics is a rogue religion with many factions. Religion is a belief system that requires an initiation and requires you to follow rules.
On a side note, do you think Scientology is a religion?
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller
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I'm going to say that you agree with everything this guy says. I agree with him. Once I understand where you stand on this.. We can have a real discussion, because I think I will know how far apart we are, on how how society is equal vs how unequal it is.
Its 1hour long. You can speed up the video by clicking on the "Gear" and change the "Speed".
Anyhow, I'd love to see your thoughts on Stephan's video.
kerfufle: Here's another one, let me know what you think. These are new video's... not ancient history.
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller I haven’t actually thought about religion in particular, I study the significance of world events and history from a general stand point. There was a certain point in my life where I realized that what I was being told didn’t reconcile with what I was seeing. I started studying finance which lead to Politics/Religion. And by studying politicians and famous people you find out, some of the twisted shit that they are into.
In my current mind, Religion and Politics is one and the same. We are naturally Political/Religious creatures, and saying that you are above it, is a very grand statement. And I would need to get to know you a little better for me to believe you.
I don’t want to admit it, but I have read a lot of material, compared to other people, about Lucifer and Satan... because of the book called “rules for radicals’ and its implications on modern politics. Its some hard stuff to get through... but there are gigabytes of it. And a lot of the Satanist methodology is very prevalent in the Atheistic world view. Just saying, maybe unknowingly, maybe conjured that way.
And to the point of a Religion requiring a deity or a central figure, I think we both agree that Buddhism and Scientology are considered Religions. To my knowledge, neither has a deity.
Getting into the discussion about which god and from which religion is true is a very basic argument. I think we both know that God, the concept, was created once, and every religion is talking about the same one. They name might change as its translated into a new language, but the idea is the same. Getting into the semantics of it, devalues the whole discussion. People that generally believe in God, generally have a higher standard for Morals, they follow rules that promote family and good values. Atheist try to re-invent the wheel thinking they know better.
Do you know of an Atheist that doesn’t hope that there is a God in their final moments before dieing (natural causes or an emergency room)? It might be a childish concept to an Atheist, but it is very endearing and comforting one for everyone else. I know Atheists strive to be like Vulcan's from Star Trek, but even they have temples and priests which suggests that they believe in at least one God. Even though it might seem illogical.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and philosophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose any restrictions on doing whatever I want. And your claim that an Atheist, wont claim to be a “know it all”, I think might be a false premise. I’m assuming that you identify as an Atheist, and if I go by what you are saying, you would have never tried to correct me about my thoughts on Atheism you wouldn’t have put the effort into correcting me. In my mind you might pick up arms one day to tell me how it is.
As for the Nazi’s I mentioned. They go by the name of Antifa, or Anti-Fascists. These people use Fascists tactics to silence people with the “wrong think” condition that I mentioned. They use sticks, and bottles filled with their own urine and toss them at innocent bystanders and police. These people are not restricted to just Europe, Canada and the USA have been experiencing these degenerates too. These people model themselves after Mussolini's Blackshirts or Hitlers Brownshirt's (storm troopers). They might be small, but they are international. The thing is, nobody asks any questions about these guys... they currently have a free pass to inflict destruction. And all of these people seem to be atheists... mostly white... and probably formerly Christian. Again, I wont assume, anything because nothing surprises me anymore.
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__[Post# 5]_________________________________________________ |The debate kicks off from here|
kerfufle: Good Response. I will respond to it with a little more consideration. I was just matching my perceived tone of your response.
Just give me a couple days, just a little busy this weekend. This might not actually be the right forum for a discussion of such abstract idea's such as religion. I think we need to set some ground rules and define what we are talking about first though, or we're a couple bitches complaining about completely different things.
But lets give it a go anyways. I'll respond more thoughtfully in a couple days. But here is my high level view.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and phlisophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose anything restriction on doing whatever I want.
Morality the concept, is vast, and means a lot of different things to different people. Which might be the topic of another day. But again, its a starting point for discussion that doesn't end in a couple lines, written on a message board, in an obscure part of the internet world.
Voltaire: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
And I believe this applies to both religion and political views, so take your stance, is atheism a political view point or a religions one? In today's world I believe politics is a rogue religion with many factions. Religion is a belief system that requires an initiation and requires you to follow rules.
On a side note, do you think Scientology is a religion?
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Well I'm clear in my mind that I was talking about RELIGION Vs NO RELIGION. This further breaks into GOD Vs NO GOD. In the midst of it all I observed that you mixed up numerous subjects which diluted the original one and I think this is the reason why you've gotten confused. Nevertheless, I'll try to explain my version and understanding of religion and politics before we go any further.
First of all, religion and politics are two different things. I do not see them as one and the same.
Religion in my opinion is a practice of certain rules (conduct) and lifestyle to satisfy god, be holy, attain salvation and finally have a happy "afterlife". Whereas politics in a broad sense is about governance, power and control to run the show in an economy. This understanding of religion and politics is accepted pretty much by a majority of people everywhere and should not be perceived as the same thing because that's just how it is. Yes, later as time went by, politics and religion did get closely knit together and may give an appearance of being one mesh but they're not. Now that I have distinguished them both, I'll stop here and will try to elaborate further on this later down in the topic.
Going further, I agree with you that education in today's time is impartial and information distributed is mostly biased for self interest. But I do not agree with you stating that one cannot reach a higher conscience. Knowing the current environment where information and data is manipulated one has to pursue a personal research, study, observation and possess a personal understanding of things. All of this requires effort, hard work, time and most importantly the will. How many people do you think are willing to come out of their comfort zones for this? How many do you think would have the mental strength to face the ugly truths? Not many! So it's better to let those people be happy in their own comfort zones and be sufficiently satisfied with the lies they've been living with, in a way it's good for their own selves. After knowing that they were much better off not knowing it all and happier running the rat mill, why should they screw their peace of mind anyway?
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I basically hate all the "isms" that get put after a mindset because later it is more likely to get perceived as a religion. Can you tell me how atheism is a religion? According to you religion has a set of rules to follow and as you say that atheism has none, so how does it even qualify as a religious practice? It is a mindset, not a religion. And who says atheist don't believe in "anything"? Just because they do not believe in a god that religion and society has tried to teach them as, does not mean they're an empty vessel that could be taken over by anyone or anything. On the contrary to your statement, atheist are less likely to get manipulated because they're skeptic, they question, they analyse and understand situations logically and they're less likely to believe anything that gets thrown at them without a proof. On the other hand religious people are more vulnerable to manipulation because if they can believe in an unseen and an unknown entity (god) with no logical or a solid proof, then they could possibly believe other things as well without a proof..And if something goes wrong, they'll just call it as an act of god's will without accepting the fact that it may have happened from their own negligence and foolish blind trust..They just can't handle responsibility and find it much easier to put it on god or just confess to him at the most. Atheist too believe in doing good, honesty, compassion, social responsibility and for all of this why would a human being need a religion in the first place? These human attributes should come naturally to people. And these are basic morals, I don't they think they should fall in conflict with a number of atheists in a group. Smart atheists think alike and won't fight eachother on basic moralities.
I think morals aren't really too differently defined, people just complicate "moralities" to suit their own interest or may be they just don't know what they're talking about and have some problem with their mental condition. Can you quote an example of difference in morals for different people?
Voltaire: “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
And I believe this applies to both religion and political views, so take your stance, is atheism a political view point or a religions one? In today's world I believe politics is a rogue religion with many factions. Religion is a belief system that requires an initiation and requires you to follow rules.
On a side note, do you think Scientology is a religion?
Voltaire is one of my favorite philosophers/writers and have always liked the quote.
My stance is that atheism is neither of the two. It is a personal mindset that one decides to adopt. I would mix it neither with religion nor politics, it is to be left as what it is.
Scientology is a self proclaimed organized religious cult..So yes, it is a religion..It even involves an initiation into the cult..This cult came to my awareness a few years ago, and didn't really catch my interest to know more about it.
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller www.youtube.com/watch?v=77MkMowiLxI
I'm going to say that you agree with everything this guy says. I agree with him. Once I understand where you stand on this.. We can have a real discussion, because I think I will know how far apart we are, on how how society is equal vs how unequal it is.
Its 1hour long. You can speed up the video by clicking on the "Gear" and change the "Speed".
Anyhow, I'd love to see your thoughts on Stephan's video.
kerfufle: Here's another one, let me know what you think. These are new video's... not ancient history.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ_MpQMwr-M
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I watched both of them, fast forwarded them to some stretches. Honestly I couldn't relate the content of the videos with the subject at all. May be you could try explaining me the reason why you shared it.
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kerfufle > Arctic Patroller I haven’t actually thought about religion in particular, I study the significance of world events and history from a general stand point. There was a certain point in my life where I realized that what I was being told didn’t reconcile with what I was seeing. I started studying finance which lead to Politics/Religion. And by studying politicians and famous people you find out, some of the twisted shit that they are into.
In my current mind, Religion and Politics is one and the same. We are naturally Political/Religious creatures, and saying that you are above it, is a very grand statement. And I would need to get to know you a little better for me to believe you.
I don’t want to admit it, but I have read a lot of material, compared to other people, about Lucifer and Satan... because of the book called “rules for radicals’ and its implications on modern politics. Its some hard stuff to get through... but there are gigabytes of it. And a lot of the Satanist methodology is very prevalent in the Atheistic world view. Just saying, maybe unknowingly, maybe conjured that way.
And to the point of a Religion requiring a deity or a central figure, I think we both agree that Buddhism and Scientology are considered Religions. To my knowledge, neither has a deity.
Getting into the discussion about which god and from which religion is true is a very basic argument. I think we both know that God, the concept, was created once, and every religion is talking about the same one. They name might change as its translated into a new language, but the idea is the same. Getting into the semantics of it, devalues the whole discussion. People that generally believe in God, generally have a higher standard for Morals, they follow rules that promote family and good values. Atheist try to re-invent the wheel thinking they know better.
Do you know of an Atheist that doesn’t hope that there is a God in their final moments before dieing (natural causes or an emergency room)? It might be a childish concept to an Atheist, but it is very endearing and comforting one for everyone else. I know Atheists strive to be like Vulcan's from Star Trek, but even they have temples and priests which suggests that they believe in at least one God. Even though it might seem illogical.
In a world where information is not distributed equally, education that is not taught impartially, and the ability to reach a higher level conscience is not within the reach of the majority of our population (mostly because of monarchical interests, and basic market interest). It is hard to say that Atheism is above religion intellectually, morally and philosophically.
Atheism only works if a person is not corruptible, because the basic (rebellious) atheist doesn't believe in anything, they are easily manipulated, just like religious people. From this perspective, Atheism is a religion. Here are a group of people that feel they have a sense of unity over an idea. The sad part is, that its a religion where people can generally justify any "moral value" away based on the current circumstance.
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose any restrictions on doing whatever I want. And your claim that an Atheist, wont claim to be a “know it all”, I think might be a false premise. I’m assuming that you identify as an Atheist, and if I go by what you are saying, you would have never tried to correct me about my thoughts on Atheism you wouldn’t have put the effort into correcting me. In my mind you might pick up arms one day to tell me how it is.
As for the Nazi’s I mentioned. They go by the name of Antifa, or Anti-Fascists. These people use Fascists tactics to silence people with the “wrong think” condition that I mentioned. They use sticks, and bottles filled with their own urine and toss them at innocent bystanders and police. These people are not restricted to just Europe, Canada and the USA have been experiencing these degenerates too. These people model themselves after Mussolini's Blackshirts or Hitlers Brownshirt's (storm troopers). They might be small, but they are international. The thing is, nobody asks any questions about these guys... they currently have a free pass to inflict destruction. And all of these people seem to be atheists... mostly white... and probably formerly Christian. Again, I wont assume, anything because nothing surprises me anymore.
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In my current mind, Religion and Politics is one and the same. We are naturally Political/Religious creatures, and saying that you are above it, is a very grand statement. And I would need to get to know you a little better for me to believe you.
Speaking of my opinion, I've already distinguished religion from politics. I'll go further than that now. And will only talk about the atheistic mindset.
We, or should I say most humans are fearful of death and are insecure of themselves. The fact that they do not know about what will happen after they die, it scares them. They probably want to live forever - they're lustful, ambitious, materialistic, believe in possessions and so on. They're so scared of the unknown that out of self preservation and self centeredness they imagine a life after death. A life span of 75-80 years just isn't enough, for them, life has to go on and get carried forward to a celestial or an astral plane and so on..All of this simply because they want their existence to mean something..These meanings that they derive in their own imagination just simply comforts them from the fear of the unknown (death and future events). This is where the quote "god didn't make man, man made god" comes into picture. An atheist just simply says there's no "meaning" to life and to a certain degree it also makes sense to me. Like, think about it - what possible meaning can life have? Did god create you? If your answer is yes, then why did he? Some may argue that god created men to let them be like him after praying to him, praising him, following certain rules/commandments etc. If this is the case, then isn't god a mischief maker for creating imperfect men and expecting them to be like him upon overcoming their so called "imperfections", which according to me is not possible because what would be termed as an imperfection is something that would come naturally to a normal human being and expecting them to overcome all of those is like asking them to deceive their own senses and natural instincts. Nothing to an enlightened man is imperfect or perfect, to him things are just how they are and does not waste too much time and energy judging them. This chain of thoughts is what gives rise to religion because it is linked to a god that man created to soothe his fears and feel secure in god's cocoon who will protect him from any mishaps because he prays to him, does what the religious rules tell him to do and will take his hand during the time of death to carry him to the next "better" place. This even reminds of the quote "I'm not scared of dying, because I'm an atheist. I won't even know I'm dead. You know why? Because I'll be fuckin' dead" by Jim Jefferies. So when you say that man is religious, he's not! He's basically fearful. Religion is just an anesthesia to him.
With the above being said, man is not political but rather greedy, power hungry, selfish, jealous, insecure, control crazy, manipulative, survivor, fighter, competitive and so on. Politics is everywhere and at every level - organizational, corporate, government, bureaucracy, families, friend circles etc...And all of this just for survival and control in an area where people gather in organized groups...Politics is just the tool and it could be used by both a religious person and an atheist. Point to note here that a religious person chooses to give away the "religious moral conduct" over politics just to survive or to even climb up the ladder - quite a hypocrisy eh.
An atheist knows the difference in religion and politics.
I don’t want to admit it, but I have read a lot of material, compared to other people, about Lucifer and Satan... because of the book called “rules for radicals’ and its implications on modern politics. Its some hard stuff to get through... but there are gigabytes of it. And a lot of the Satanist methodology is very prevalent in the Atheistic world view. Just saying, maybe unknowingly, maybe conjured that way.
Ok, I'll take the liberty to try adding a little more to your already existing knowledge on Satanism. There are two kinds of it - one that accepts Satan/Lucifer as the true father and creator and oppose Jesus Christ. They have a believe in an entity as their god who they call Satan. The second type is Laveyan Satanism. This sect of Satanism was started by Anton Lavey, the founder of Church of Satan. Laveyan Satanism actually believes in man being just flesh and bones and nothing more than that, they reject the idea of existence of any kind of a super natural power whether god or the devil, nor do they believe in a spirit existence. They think of man as just another animal with his natural animal like instincts of which he should not feel guilty of. Now, the irony is that whatever is written in the Satanic Bible Anton Lavey, is nothing more than a pure copy paste of content from the book "Might is Right" by Ragnar Redbeard. I was myself shocked when I read this book and learnt that almost everything was lifted from this book by Anton Lavey for the so called Satanic Bible. You may ask that if the Satanic Bible talks of non belief in both god and devil then why would he even name the cult after a devil figure? Well he simply did that to mock the Christian Church! It's stupid, I know. You may even argue that atheists and Laveyan Satanists are the same then. I would say, no they're not..There are vast differences in both even if they have just one point of parity which is that they both reject the idea of god. Other than this there are many points of difference between the two.
And to the point of a Religion requiring a deity or a central figure, I think we both agree that Buddhism and Scientology are considered Religions. To my knowledge, neither has a deity.
Well they're both religions. Religions that have one or more deities are polytheistic and the ones that don't have are monotheistic. So having a deity or not having one is not the question at all, they're religions!
Getting into the discussion about which god and from which religion is true is a very basic argument. I think we both know that God, the concept, was created once, and every religion is talking about the same one. They name might change as its translated into a new language, but the idea is the same. Getting into the semantics of it, devalues the whole discussion. People that generally believe in God, generally have a higher standard for Morals, they follow rules that promote family and good values. Atheist try to re-invent the wheel thinking they know better.
I would differ on your statement that every religion talks on the same idea but in different languages. Religion has been around for ages, they all were founded on certain belief systems that were conditioned and shaped by the circumstances and cultures of the land that were founded on. They just might have only one thing in common that they refer to something called as a "god" but the way they have defined god is different from eachother. Just the difference in definition of god may be enough to cause conflicts amongst eachother, let alone the list of other differences. I don't need to mentioned the slaughters done and bloody battles fought in the name of religion..Those who fighting also said during the wars and battles that god was on their side, but whose side was god really on? I also disagree with you saying that belief in god or religion instills higher moral values in social and personal conduct and teach good family values. Going by your stated standard, if a married couple isn't happy with eachother and can't find solutions to their problems then they shouldn't go for a divorce, right? Because religion tells them to stay married with just one partner forever even if that means tolerating each other with dislike and bitterness. Good standard of morals and values in social and family life comes from an individual's empathy, sound emotional balance and personal intellect and not religion. Religion can enforce these value by instilling fear in people who naturally lack these attributes. This reminds me of the quote "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" by Napolean. Atheists don't try to re-invent anything, they just try to be rational and realistic.
Do you know of an Atheist that doesn’t hope that there is a God in their final moments before dieing (natural causes or an emergency room)? It might be a childish concept to an Atheist, but it is very endearing and comforting one for everyone else. I know Atheists strive to be like Vulcan's from Star Trek, but even they have temples and priests which suggests that they believe in at least one God. Even though it might seem illogical.
No I personally do not know any such people. But there are some atheist figures who Christians claim to have converted back to their religion and accepted god whilst on their death beds but no such reliable records have been found that prove those claims to be right. No such records are found for Christopher Hitchens...Christians have even staged a propaganda that Anton Lavey regretted being an atheist and accepted Christanity during his last hours and repented till his last breath..I can't believe this to be true either because it is obvious for religiously driven people to say all of that but then a question to think about is that what would a "righteous" Christian be doing around Anton's death bed? Is it not going to be a sin for such a Christian to be even around such a person? I know that Lemmy Kilmister, the front man of the band Motorhead didn't believe in god or the devil till his death..He always rejected the idea..He passed away about 2 years ago, there has been no discussion found of him wanting to believe in a god in his final hours. He died just two days after he was diagnosed with last stage cancer. He rather welcomed death with a smile, that's what has been said about him. However, the man was spiritual but didn't believe in the type of god that the world tells us. Now I have a question for you - Why did you have to come with quoting just death to test a person's belief in god? Why just death? I always wonder why people always talk about god so seriously when they think of death? Why do I not come across people who think of god in their living life, happy moments and are grateful..People who would see a great beautiful mountain or the coral reefs beneath the sea and say "hey look, that's such a unique and a beautiful creation of god and I thank him for letting me witness it, or like "god you're awesome and I love you!" For such people to remember god on their death beds is justifiable! Because they made god a part of their happy moments in life, didn't complain to him for the hard times and had been grateful for all the good and bad things that happened because they did learn from it. Think about it!
I am on the side of doing whatever you want, as long as it doesn't impose any restrictions on doing whatever I want. And your claim that an Atheist, wont claim to be a “know it all”, I think might be a false premise. I’m assuming that you identify as an Atheist, and if I go by what you are saying, you would have never tried to correct me about my thoughts on Atheism you wouldn’t have put the effort into correcting me. In my mind you might pick up arms one day to tell me how it is.
Well I too agree with being ok with anyone doing anything as long as it does not pose restrictions or threats to somebody else.
And I think you didn't read the text correctly - I never said that atheists don't claim to be a "know it all", I just said they don't pretend to be knowing everything about the after life and other mysteries of the world. I'll paste the comment here for you to read it again from Post# 5: An atheist will never claim to be a "know it all" guy when it comes to topics like life after death, reincarnation, judgement day, apocalypse etc because he admits that he may not have all the answers and does not unnecessarily try to come up with an answer out of fantasy but rather faces and feels the fears as they come and this is why I see them as humble and honest people. Moreover, I never said that I'm an hardcore atheist. I do have respect for those atheists who are genuine and reasonable, and I also have respect for what they believe in because most of it makes a lot of sense to me. But I do have some traits of an agnostic. More than all of this, I'm spiritual. I don't want to confuse you so I'd just say that my definition of god is different from what people try to tell me. And you are entitled to your own opinion but I won't refrain from saying that a correction was indeed required because as I said earlier that you mixed up a few things and I just made a small effort to segregate atheism, religion and politics from each other to let you have a little more clear picture. What you've told me about religion so far are the things that I already know and so do the masses, because it's a common knowledge to everyone..But what I've told you about atheism may have some new stuff for you to know about. Despite all of this, if you still maintain the same opinions as before then fine, I don't have a problem with that at all because they won't change my opinions as well and you have right to your opinions and their expression. And don't you think you should try knowing me better before just assuming that I'm somebody who's going to pick up arms to prove my point? Because earlier you said the same before you could actually believe that I'm above religion and politics then why not apply the same to the former comment as well, Lolll...Anyway, that was just a joke :)
As for the Nazi’s I mentioned. They go by the name of Antifa, or Anti-Fascists. These people use Fascists tactics to silence people with the “wrong think” condition that I mentioned. They use sticks, and bottles filled with their own urine and toss them at innocent bystanders and police. These people are not restricted to just Europe, Canada and the USA have been experiencing these degenerates too. These people model themselves after Mussolini's Blackshirts or Hitlers Brownshirt's (storm troopers). They might be small, but they are international. The thing is, nobody asks any questions about these guys... they currently have a free pass to inflict destruction. And all of these people seem to be atheists... mostly white... and probably formerly Christian. Again, I wont assume, anything because nothing surprises me anymore.
Ok, I checked up on the Nazi groups you mentioned.
Well they could be atheist but they're also extremist, just like you have religious extremists. They call themselves anti fascists which is ok, but looking at their actions they seem to misrepresent their own agenda and what further makes their deviation from their so called agenda even more obvious is the way they're putting across their message. I couldn't get to know much about them, whose sponsoring them, their real purpose of existence etc..All I could understand about them is that they're of an extremist mindset who are trying to impose their ideology forcefully and destructively on others which makes them law offenders and peace breakers..They're rather an anti social element and pose a serious threat to the society. They're in no way enlightened or intellectual.
Look, good people will do good and bad people will do bad whether they're religious or not. The bottom line is that religion or atheism is not about making somebody good because being good or bad is in the individual's nature regardless of what belief system he/she has. It's more about how can it enhance or improve your personal experience of life as an individual on earth..People who have a rich inner life, who have empathy for others, who have patience and are emotionally balanced do not need religion. Well they could be spiritual by choice, but they certainly do not feel the need to be religiously driven.
Well the discussion isn't yet over I know that. There's more to come, and I look forward to this taking an intelligent turn.
See ya!
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